Miss use of City and LL&P resources?

theotherside
Junior Member

Posts: 57

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Oct 5, 2012 10:40:05 GMT -5

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Post by theotherside on Oct 5, 2012 10:40:05 GMT -5

Why is the City and LL&P using the tax payers resources to send out fliers with the water and electric bills? I've talked to a couple workers and they have shown clear evidence that a lot of the statements in the fliers is partial truths or complete lies! I am appalled that our city would attack our workers the way they are. The flier doesn't show the wages of non union workers. For example it didn't tell you that the lead lineman at LL&P makes around $35 per hour and the next guy makes over $40 per hour or the manager makes over $50 per hour, plus the all got raises and two of the three got bonuses!! It doesn't tell you that the city and LL&P are proposing pay cuts for the union workers. Some of the cuts are as high as 31%!!! Plus cutting only union member benefits for LL&P workers.

Another thing it doesn't tell you that the city and LL&P won't even sit in the same room with the workers during contract negotiations. That doesn't sound like gold faith bargaining if you ask me. I'm going to try to attach papers proving these statements as soon as I learn. How to. There is also a lot more to be published so stay tuned.

gregcanfield New Member Posts: 25	Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 13, 2013 20:15:31 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by gregcanfield on Jan 13, 2013 20:15:31 GMT -5 I'd love to see these documents. please show me a copy of these documents. I don't believe they exist but please prove me wrong! 616 292 4948 Greg
	email gregcanfield@aol.com cell 616 292 4948

grayfox
New Member

Posts: 11

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 15, 2013 21:14:30 GMT -5

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Post by grayfox on Jan 15, 2013 21:14:30 GMT -5

why doesn't the chairman know what people are making in the company he's supposed to be over seeing or is he just taking the words from the general manager thats not going to try to pull the wool over his eyes come on canfeild wake up the guys a good guy the dog must of stolen the furniture and it was all a big mistake thats why he left traversecity maybe its time for a new lowell light and power board instead of the good old boy thing you scratch my back and i'll turn my head

gregcanfield
New Member

Posts: 25

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 18, 2013 6:58:32 GMT -5

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Post by gregcanfield on Jan 18, 2013 6:58:32 GMT -5

LL & P is an excellent place to work with excellent pay and a very rich benefit package. I did not ask to be on the board, in fact when Chuck Myers asked me 6 years ago I told him I was very busy, already over committed and said only if he couldn't find anyone else. A month later he was back and I reluctantly ended up on the board. I don't set the wages, but we have had studies done to ensure that wages fall within iindustry standards. The 5 member board is a diverse group with different backgrounds, including at least one union member. We are just working class people like the employees at LL&P and are very concerned about doing the right thing for the employees. See Perry's letter to the editor in the Ledger. My goal is to correct misconceptions and eliminate personal attacks on individuals ( such as calling the guy a "the dog" . Come on, really,

) Running out of time, slow typer, but I'll be back. Greg

email gregcanfield@aol.com

cell 616 292 4948

theotherside
Junior Member

Posts: 57

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 18, 2013 10:44:25 GMT -5

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Post by theotherside on Jan 18, 2013 10:44:25 GMT -5

Here is the truth about the pay increases in LL&P.
General manager: $10,000 salary increase plus additional 3% base pay. Currently makes
$53.70 hr. That's over 13% pay raise.

Assistant manager (second in command): $1.83 hr. (4.57% pay raise) plus $1,158.57 bonus. Current wage $ 41.83 hr.

Lead lineman: $1.49 hr. (6% pay raise). Current wage $32.06 hr.

These are some of your non union workers. Or as you would call them management. They received an average of 7.86% pay raise, not to mention the bonuses. And every other non union worker received pay increases, some as high % as the previous three.
Now lets look at what you are offering the two remaining union workers. First you wanted to cut the second line man's pay by over a dollar per hour and then LL&P is gracious enough to offer a 1% increase. Personally that does not seem fair. Now I'm not saying some of the other workers didn't deserve the raises but it sounds like LL&P are trying to punish those who joined the union because of things just like this. As far as the 31% pay cut that would be the city me mechanic. He works in 4 or more different depts. and has multiple state certifications including water filtration license, multiple mechanic certifications, CDL license and I'm told many others. Now the city wants him to continue all of these roles but wants to cut his wage up to the 31%. I originally didn't differentiate between the city and LL&P because in the city's an LL&P' flier it didn't. I received the FOIA requested documents from the union. I wanted to know the truth and the union officials were more than happy to give me copies along with the proposed contracts that the city and LL&P wants the workers to sign. So if you want to see them just ask for them, you are the chairman of the board for LL&P and you can ask the union for the documents from the city. They are very helpful.

Now lets talk about

gregcanfield
New Member

Posts: 25

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 18, 2013 18:26:42 GMT -5

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Post by gregcanfield on Jan 18, 2013 18:26:42 GMT -5

Please understand that I am a volunteer trying to do what I feel is best for the City and LL&P with the information that I have. There are legalities with negotiations, that I am not going to attempt to contact the union as I don't want to interfere with the negotiations. I believe that would be illegal. If you have copies of the contract that I can get, I would be thrilled to see them and it would be helpful in getting this situation resolved. There's a mail slot in the front door at Canfield Plbg where you can anonymously drop them at night or call me and tell me where you left them 616 292 4948. I can only address LL&P issues, I feel the DPW issues are different and separate. I spent $400 of my own money to try and correct misinformation, also read Perry's letter to the Editor, the Board supports all employee's of LL&P and I believe that the majority of the employees are pleased with the direction of LL&P. to be continued Thanks Greg

email gregcanfield@aol.com

cell 616 292 4948

theotherside
Junior Member

Posts: 57

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 19, 2013 13:40:07 GMT -5

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Post by theotherside on Jan 19, 2013 13:40:07 GMT -5

Mr. Canfield, I understand you are volunteering your time and I want to thank you for that. But you also have to understand that not only you but the entire LL&P board have an obligation to dictate policies and procedures with the best of intentions for everybody. You alone have the largest responsibility being chairman of the board. Did you know how bad worker moral is among the guys who are in the union? I keep hearing that for some reason that is illegal for anybody to know what is going on with the proposed contracts. This doesn't make any sense. You're company is negotiating this contract and you will ultimately have to sign it so why can't you know about it now? I had an opportunity to speak with the attorney that represents the workers and he explains that the only thing you can't do is to negotiate with an individual employee, it must go thru the union. I also want to say that some people like myself has asked questions about many different issues with little or no response. We just keep getting a stump speech about how profitable LL&P has become and how good the workers have it but this doesn't seem to be the case. I think the flier the City and LL&P sent out with our utility bills was a low blow and uncalled for. It only told half the story and in some cases was entirely wrong. Hey we all make mistakes, fess up to them and move on. Instruct the general manager and the attorney that represents the City and LL&P to stop messing around, sit in the same room and really try to come to an fair deal with your workers. I mean come on, you are talking about three worker. For the money you have spent with your attorney you could have given everything they are asking for and saved LL&P some money. The other thing I want to say, and I'm not trying to be derogatory but please don't tell me that it is out of your hands. You and the other board members control LL&P. You do have the power to ask questions, as a matter of fact it is your duty to ask and verify what you are being told from Mr. Pierce. That is how government works. It is called checks and balances. The rate payers are relying on this very principal. That is why I am so upset when hear blatant lies and partial truths from LL&P. An example is when you said multiple times in the ledger and in public that no employee was let go when the cable division was sold. That was a lie. LL&P let Mr. Dyier go. I know you weren't on the board then but you did say it as a representative of the company. Also as I was watching one of you board meetings when Mr. Perry claimed that no worker benefits were going to be cut but in the very last meeting the board unanimously voted to drop health care for new hired workers AND the union worker from a 90/10 to a 80/20. This is the truth that can be seen by watching the recorded board meeting. These are just some of the things people are starting to see taking place there and at the city. We don't like to be lied to. The good thing is you, the board, and the council have the power to change the current course. I will say that at least you are talking to the public. The City Council and the city manager, Mr. Howe won't even comment to their own constituents. That is very irresponsible as our leaders. This is not a dictatorship, it is a democracy where all voices should be heard. Do your part and hear them.

gregcanfield
New Member

Posts: 25

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 26, 2013 7:34:25 GMT -5

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Post by gregcanfield on Jan 26, 2013 7:34:25 GMT -5

other side:

on Oct 5th you referenced papers that you were going to attach proving your statements.

On Jan 13th I requested a copy of these documents.

On Jan 18th you stated that the union was more than happy to give you copies of the proposed contracts.

On Jan 18th I asked to see a copy of these contracts, with several means of getting them to me anonymously. You say you have these documents yet you have not shared them with me. why?

I still don't believe anyone is being asked to take a paycut .

Your post on Jan 19th has several inaccurate statements that I will respond to after I confirm the facts as I remember them. to be continued.

email gregcanfield@aol.com

cell 616 292 4948

theotherside
Junior Member

Posts: 57

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 26, 2013 14:06:37 GMT -5

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Post by theotherside on Jan 26, 2013 14:06:37 GMT -5

Oh Mr. Canfield I like how you are trying to turn this around on me.
But ok I will play your game. On Oct. 5 I spoke of the wages that some of the non union workers make that were not published in the hand out. You didn't believe me so on Jan. 18 I told you exactly what they made and how much of a bonus they received. If I am wrong, which I am not, then publish ALL employees wages and performance pay increases (bonuses) and prove me WRONG! I will be waiting.

Then I referenced how the CITY and LL&P was proposing pay cuts as high as 31%. If you want to know here it is: The city mechanic/water treatment operator/equipment operator makes $27.22hr. Can't deny that, it was in your (the city and LL&P) flyer. Now the city has proposed that if he runs a plow truck or any piece of equipment he would make the wage of an operator. That proposed pay rate is $18.69hr max. That is a 31.33% pay cut. Don't believe me than the city can publish what they are proposing and PROVE ME WRONG!
(Which I am not).

On the Oct. 13th you requested these papers. You can get them yourself. You are the chairman of the board and can see any paper that LL&P has. And if you don't want to ask the IBEW union for the other papers then ask the city under the Freedom of Information Act. Everything the city does is public and anybody from the public can get them. How do you think the union got some of its papers from the city? Then when you get them publish them and PROVE ME WRONG!

As far as the 18th refer to the previous statement.

Now lets move on to your last statement about the "inaccurate statements".
1. Illegal for public to know the proposed contracts. If that is true why did the union asked 3 residents to sit in on one of the contract negotiations? And showed then the proposed contracts? And why do I and other residents have copies? Because it ISN'T ILLEGAL for the public to know everything. It is the CITY and LL&P that doesn't want the public to know!

2. Next topic, questions not answered: Residents and rate payers wrote to the Ledger in "letter to editor" and asked questions, no answers. Residents and rate payers went to council meetings. They were told that the public could only say something during public and the council "does not comment or respond for the public comments".
Residents and rate payers went to your board meeting when the two apprentices were fired. They had questions about the reasons they were fired, you said the board will not comment. Also at the 9-13-12 meeting Peggy Covert and Barb Barber asked very specific questions that were not answered.

3. Sending flyers: The city and LL&P did. No question there.

4. Sitting in same room for negotiations: the union ask repeatedly ask to be in the same room with the mediator, the city manager, the general manager of LL&P and their attorney that represents both the city and LL&P. They (the city and LL&P) for many meetings until those 3 residents showed up at a negotiation!

4. Larry Dyer: I apologize if I miss spelled his name, I don't know him. You said multiple times in the Ledger that LL&P never let anybody go when the cable was sold. He showed up at your board meeting of 9-13-12 and proved you wrong again! You said that your comment in the Ledger "was written from your perspective as an individual not a board member". You are the chairman of the board for LL&P and when you state something about LL&P in the paper you are a board member. Stating that "as an individual" is a scape goat. Also Perry Beachum was proven wrong by one of your employees during that same meeting when he said that since he has been a board member they have always approved merit raises.

5. Perry Beachum's response: On the meeting of 8-9-12 the board unanimously passed cut to new workers and to be included in the proposed union contract. This conversation started 3:20 minutes into the meeting. Then on the 9-13-12 meeting Perry Beachum did admit that it was voted in to the contract but was only "intended for new workers".
To add to this, Laponsie stated that contract negotiations are not open to the public. Once again this is wrong, if LL&P and the city wanted, they could show the public ALL proposed contracts.

This sums up my "inaccurate comments". I don't see any inaccuracies in them. But by all means PROVE ME WRONG! I welcome it.

As a matter of fact I'm going to start a new thread so this topic is fresh and everyone will read it. That is how confident my information is.
Thank you.

gregcanfield
New Member

Posts: 25

Miss use of City and LL&P resources? Jan 26, 2013 17:29:45 GMT -5

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Post by gregcanfield on Jan 26, 2013 17:29:45 GMT -5

I'll start by posting questions Mr. Canfield asked me and how he stated that there was no proof. Here's the post:

Posted by gregcanfield on Today at 7:34am
other side:

on Oct 5th you referenced papers that you were going to attach proving your statements.

On Jan 13th I requested a copy of these documents.

On Jan 18th you stated that the union was more than happy to give you copies of the proposed contracts.

On Jan 18th I asked to see a copy of these contracts, with several means of getting them to me anonymously. You say you have these documents yet you have not shared them with me. why?

I still don't believe anyone is being asked to take a paycut .

Your post on Jan 19th has several inaccurate statements that I will respond to after I confirm the facts as I remember them. to Posted by gregcanfield on Today at 7:34am
other side:

on Oct 5th you referenced papers that you were going to attach proving your statements.

On Jan 13th I requested a copy of these documents.

On Jan 18th you stated that the union was more than happy to give you copies of the proposed contracts.

On Jan 18th I asked to see a copy of these contracts, with several means of getting them to me anonymously. You say you have these documents yet you have not shared them with me. why?

I still don't believe anyone is being asked to take a paycut .

Your post on Jan 19th has several inaccurate statements that I will respond to after I confirm the facts as I remember them. to be continued.

I have stated previously my involvement and comments are limited to LL&P as I am not as involved in the City /DPW negotiations. I will highlight all my responses in blue for clarity. Greg Canfield

Now I want to let everybody know the truth so here is my post:

Oh Mr. Canfield I like how you are trying to turn this around on me.
But ok I will play your game. On Oct. 5 I spoke of the wages that some of the non union workers make that were not published in the hand out. You didn't believe me so on Jan. 18 I told you exactly what they made and how much of a bonus they received. If I am wrong, which I am not, then publish ALL employees wages and performance pay increases (bonuses) and prove me WRONG! I will be waiting.

my understanding of your post was that you had documents showing the proposed pay cuts. Those are what I was asking to see as I don't believe they exist. The point of the handout was to inform the public of the current wages of the union members.

I'm going to try to attach papers proving these statements as soon as I learn How to. There is also a lot more to be published so stay tuned.

above is a copy of your Oct 5 post in Red, these papers you refer to are what I was asking for in my Oct 13 post.

Then I referenced how the CITY and LL&P was proposing pay cuts as high as 31%. If you want to know here it is: The city mechanic/water treatment operator/equipment operator makes $27.22hr. Can't deny that, it was in your (the city and LL&P) flyer. Now the city has proposed that if he runs a plow truck or any piece of equipment he would make the wage of an operator. That proposed pay rate is $18.69hr max. That is a 31.33% pay cut. Don't believe me than the city can publish what they are proposing and PROVE ME WRONG!
(Which I am not).

My comments are relating to LL&P, not the city, two different animals

On the Oct. 13th you requested these papers. You can get them yourself. You are the chairman of the board and can see any paper that LL&P has. And if you don't want to ask the IBEW union for the other papers then ask the city under the Freedom of Information Act. Everything the city does is public and anybody from the public can get them. How do you think the union got some of its papers from the city? Then when you get them publish them and PROVE ME WRONG!

As far as the 18th refer to the previous statement.

Apparently you are less interested in resolving this situation and more interested in continuing the internet sparring. My time is limited and I ask why you can't drop me a copy. because you don't have one.

Now lets move on to your last statement about the "inaccurate statements".
1. Illegal for public to know the proposed contracts. If that is true why did the union asked 3 residents to sit in on one of the contract negotiations? And showed then the proposed contracts? And why do I and other residents have copies? Because it ISN'T ILLEGAL for the public to know everything. It is the CITY and LL&P that doesn't want the public to know!

I was involved in a Union Organization campaign very similar to this 35 years ago, as an employee who was the point man for the union. We were overpromised on what the union could do for us and the union ended up walking away after 2 or 3 years, leaving wounds and scars that cause a lot of pain, still, to this day. There are federal regulations regarding how these contracts are settled and I will not interfere with negotiations, as advised.
If all these copies of the proposed contracts are indeed floating around, why can't somebody get one to me. This would be helpful and give credibility to your claim.

2. Next topic, questions not answered: Residents and rate payers wrote to the Ledger in "letter to editor" and asked questions, no answers. Residents and rate payers went to council meetings. They were told that the public could only say something during public and the council "does not comment or respond for the public comments".

A) I'm LL&P and B) I will not interfere with negotiations, as advised

Residents and rate payers went to your board meeting when the two apprentices were fired. They had questions about the reasons they were fired, you said the board will not comment. Also at the 9-13-12 meeting Peggy Covert and Barb Barber asked very specific questions that were not answered.

The apprentices were terminated weeks before the 9-13-12 meeting.
The meeting was held to disclose the results of an appeal of the termination of two employees. The confidential nature of that information cannot be discussed in an open public meeting.

3. Sending flyers: The city and LL&P did. No question there.

4. Sitting in same room for negotiations: the union ask repeatedly ask to be in the same room with the mediator, the city manager, the general manager of LL&P and their attorney that represents both the city and LL&P. They (the city and LL&P) for many meetings until those 3 residents showed up at a negotiation!

4. Larry Dyer: I apologize if I miss spelled his name, I don't know him. You said multiple times in the Ledger that LL&P never let anybody go when the cable was sold. He showed up at your board meeting of 9-13-12 and proved you wrong again!

I was wrong the one time that I made that statement in a letter to the editor. and I apologized to Larry at that meeting. That statement was made in defense of the attacks on outsourcing certain projects (which again to the best of my knowledge) which has never resulted in a loss of employment to a LL&P employee. After that meeting, I was informed that Larry, I believe, turned down an offer to transfer to another position with the city and instead chose a severance package. Whatever it was, it was a result of the Cable Co being neglected to a point where the Board in place at that time felt that the best resolution was to salvage the investment by selling the Co to Comcast.
Under current management and staff, LL&P IS thriving, investing for the future, and will provide reliable, economical and sustainable power for the Lowell community for many years to come.

You said that your comment in the Ledger "was written from your perspective as an individual not a board member". You are the chairman of the board for LL&P and when you state something about LL&P in the paper you are a board member. Stating that "as an individual" is a scape goat. Also Perry Beachum was proven wrong by one of your employees during that same meeting when he said that since he has been a board member they have always approved merit raises.

Since I don't want to hire an attorney for every statement I make, I make them as an individual, I stand by what I say, but it is as an individual. I don't want to risk LL&P being sued over my personal statements in this wonderful litigious (law suit happy) world that we live in today.

5. Perry Beachum's response: On the meeting of 8-9-12 the board unanimously passed cut to new workers and to be included in the proposed union contract. This conversation started 3:20 minutes into the meeting. Then on the 9-13-12 meeting Perry Beachum did admit that it was voted in to the contract but was only "intended for new workers".
To add to this, Laponsie stated that contract negotiations are not open to the public. Once again this is wrong, if LL&P and the city wanted, they could show the public ALL proposed contracts.

This sums up my "inaccurate comments". I don't see any inaccuracies in them. But by all means PROVE ME WRONG! I welcome it.

As a matter of fact I'm going to start a new thread so this topic is fresh and everyone will read it. That is how confident my information is.
Thank you.

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Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 17:34:49 GMT -5 by gregcanfield

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Miss use of City and LL&P resources?

Post by theotherside on Oct 5, 2012 10:40:05 GMT -5

Post by gregcanfield on Jan 13, 2013 20:15:31 GMT -5

Post by grayfox on Jan 15, 2013 21:14:30 GMT -5

Post by gregcanfield on Jan 18, 2013 6:58:32 GMT -5

Post by theotherside on Jan 18, 2013 10:44:25 GMT -5

Post by gregcanfield on Jan 18, 2013 18:26:42 GMT -5

Post by theotherside on Jan 19, 2013 13:40:07 GMT -5

Post by gregcanfield on Jan 26, 2013 7:34:25 GMT -5

Post by theotherside on Jan 26, 2013 14:06:37 GMT -5

Post by gregcanfield on Jan 26, 2013 17:29:45 GMT -5

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